Hi, welcome to Malazan Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the User:Toctheyounger page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 18:24, August 18, 2015 (UTC)

Welcome again Edit

Hi Toc, thanks for chipping in. Are you currently reading RotCG? Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 18:37, August 18, 2015 (UTC)

Flattery... Edit

...will get you everywhere - is one of the standard phrases my other half uses, lol. Thank you very much for your positive feedback :) Great that you decided to register - it's good to be able to think of contributors as people, rather than numbers.

Sounds like you have been lurking for a while, so you probably know most of the other regulars here. Do pop in to Dujek's Command Tent and add your name to the current rota :)

See you around!

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 19:08, August 18, 2015 (UTC)

tense... Edit

... as in past tense is what is used for all articles apart from the book pages and the chapter summaries, Toc. I didn't realize either when I first started editing. Just so you know why I am undoing your diligent efforts on that point ;) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:18, August 18, 2015 (UTC)

Just realized itEdit

Well, I'll be damned... Won't happen again. Oh, and don't worry about the editing my edits. i'll have to keep that in mind from now onwards. Thanks for letting me know.

ref edits Edit

I still remember the first time I read about Rillish going over the edge! Noooo...! I have made a few changes to the Bakune page to adjust your edits to the standard Wiki lay-out. Great to see someone giving Stonewielder a bit of TLC. With ArchieVist doing DP's for Some of the other novels, Esslemont is beginning to look a lot better on the Wiki! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:54, August 18, 2015 (UTC)


You have no idea what kind of agony i was in while I didn't know he was still alive. I thought ICE had been taken by the SE fever and started killing the persons(s) I wanted to live most. I really considered firing an email reprimanding ICE for soing that until I finsihed the book. I just checked the edits. Thanks for that.

I liked most of ICE's books but since I've only re read ICE's books, thats  what I want to focus on right now. I'll start my main series re read soon and hopefully work in conjunction with you guys to make this wikia even better.

Toctheyounger (talk) 21:07, August 18, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, he was my favourite character as well... still, it was all the better then to find out he had survived and got his quiet life at last!
A couple of things as we're talking editing... in print, the name of ships in English are always given in italics... again something I learned whilst editing here. When you create a new page, add a 'Notes and References' section to each page and at least one category. If you go into edit mode for the Bakune page, you should be able to see what I changed. Also, you may want to make sentences a bit shorter. I am trying to encourage referencing on the Wiki. The aim is to eventually have source references for everything and, ideally, a reference at the end of a sentence would apply to the entire sentence. It will make things easier in the long run.
Oh, and I forgot to warn you that editing is addictive... in fact, the word should probably be edi(c)tive :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 21:13, August 18, 2015 (UTC)
Gotcha. Thanks for all that. I'll learn more as I do more. And yeah, you're absolutely right, this thing is really addictive. You want people to understand stuff more. Part of why I admire your work all that much. Thanks again.

I think you'll find that your own understanding of the books changes quite a bit because you are constantly looking at, sometimes minute, detail. It will give you a whole new appreciation of the scope of the Malazan world. Talking about referencing... :) ..... if you do fancy adding some... :) .... Take a look at K'rul's page which does have different types of references. Just copy the format that suits you. In an ideal world, everyone would add as well which type od edition they have and the page number, however, I am pretty happy with just the book and chapter. It helps enormously when people are using the Wiki if they can cross reference with the books. Plus, the better referenced the Wiki is, the more it can be taken seriously as a source in itself. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 08:18, August 19, 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Toctheyounger Edit

I'm aimzz, the junior admin. I'm so glad you signed up. You've hit the ground running, taking up an area that's been needing a lot of attention. I'm especially glad you're adding references to your entries. Most contributers don't realize how important it is to back up what we say. Just to make the refs a little easier, there's no need to include info such as the book number or the chapter name. For example,

'Night of Knives Chapter 5, Feints and Fates' is just as accurate if you say 'Night of Knives, Chapter 5 '

'Return of the Crimson Guard, Book Three, Chapter II' is as accurate as 'Return of the Crimson Guard, Chapter II'

You are doing a great job. If you need any help, Egwene is the best resource, but you can always check with me as a backup.

Have a great morning (or evening, depending on where you are) :)

Ach! Forget to sign!

aimzzz (talk) 12:08, August 19, 2015 (UTC)

Great to hear from you aimzzz, and thanks for the positive feedback. I'm working through an ICE re read, so I'm primarily going to edit that part. I'm waiting for my main series to arrive, whence I will start on that part.

About the references, I just took a few hints from Egwene, so because I'm new at it, I'm still a bit rough on the edges. Thanks for the pointers. Oh and its afternoon here :)

Toctheyounger (talk) 12:13, August 19, 2015 (UTC)Toctheyounger

Hello again Edit

Great to see you catching the editing bug *grin* Here's a little bit more feedback to your edits...

Thank you for adding references - I can't tell you how happy that makes me. I'd rather have short contributions with references then long ones with none. I see Aimzzz has already give you the heads-up about the formatting... When I said book, I meant as in 'Return of the Crimson Guard' for example, not which book within the book. Sorry about giving you extra work there *oophs**

Great to see new pages as well - we have now broken the 2900 mark! When you write an article, try and keep it impersonal - for example, I have taken out the '(not particular imaginative)' bit from the Temper page as it seems to be a personal observation. It is appropriate to use judgmental or non-objective descriptions like 'the best' if they are used in the book. If so, add 'so and so thought of X as...' and add the reference. Oh, and I don't know if you have used the phrase yet... but try and avoid 'it was revealed' - 'we discovered' etc... it's a bit of a personal bug-bear with me, lol. Everything we enter could be classed as having been revealed/discovered. Use sparingly!!!

I have changed a few things to bring your edits in line with the format of the rest of the Wiki... for example, the page name at the beginning of the article gets bolded. If you look at the differences in Recent Changes, it will give you some guidelines for other edits of the kind.

Don't be afraid to correct the corrections. The Wiki relies on all of us tweaking until we get the perfect result for the user :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 09:18, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

Hello again, Egwene,

About the references, I thought it best to be comprehensive. I'll keep the format in mind from now on though.

I agree about the Temper part. I thought it as something of a personal observation, but I agreed with it, so I left it there. I just edited the details part after that intro thing because I thought the page could use more details. I agree that this wikia should be impersonal and should state the facts without personal remarks. And about "the best" part, I've had far too many conversations with people about best swordsman, most intelligent, best strategist et al, and one thing I know is that opinions always differ, so I always avoid stating someone is 'the best' or 'the awesome-est' and so forth.

Thanks for that name thing, I'll keep it in mind hereforthwith. Oh yeah, everything about the Malazan world has been revealed to us by prophet SE, so I don't like phrases like that either :)

Toctheyounger (talk) 10:09, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

Wish the prophet WOULD reveal a few more things, lol. I am hoping that the duo will bring out a printed Malaz Encyclopedia sometime with lots of odd bits of hitherto unknown background story.

I have started a discussion in DCT about the order in which we display the info. Check in if you have a moment and add your thoughts.

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:35, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

Korelri campaign Edit

Do you have the refs for the following section, Toc?

Greymane had actually been given a sword by the Stormriders. His aim had been, all along, to bring down the wall that represented a most oppressive religion dedicated to 'The Lady' (a representation of a piece of The Crippled God) using this sword. To this end, Greymane dared talk and understand the enemy (the Stormriders).

I thought he first talked to the riders, was then given the sword. I don't remember that the destruction of the wall was his aim all along. It would be great to be able to recap on those bits.

Great write-up on the military stuff! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:14, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

He did talk to the riders first. I guess I didn't write that clear enough. I'll edit it now. For the second part, I have to clarify that that's an inference. I'll get the reference from where I inferred it. Although that's probably a personal touch (the personal inference part), a lot of information can be inferred. Although if you feel its an illogical inference, please remove it.

Oh and I intend to expand the tactics part further.

Yours Malazanaically,

Toctheyounger (talk) 10:11, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

Malazanaically? Sounds like a mixture of Malazan and Maniac, lol!

Yes, whenever something is inferred, add the source and something like 'It was inferred that...' to the text so that a user can differentiate between what is in the book and what can be read between the lines. Do use it for extremely well supported theories only though, otherwise it is better to add a section to the bottom of the page headed 'Speculations' or 'Theories'. If you know of a forum thread that discusses the theory, you could add the link for that to the speculation section as well. That way the user can get the background story and make up their own mind if they want to go with the popular thinking or not.

Yours, Wu-shing you the best ;)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:57, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

Gotcha. The speculation and theories part is a particularly good suggestion.

Never got the number on Wu. What is that?, since you so kindly put a word-play on it.

Toctheyounger (talk) 12:24, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

Enesh Jer Edit

Hi Toc, could you double check your copy for the spelling of this one? In mine it is Enesh-jer. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 19:16, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

Egwene, you're absolutely right. I was quite under the impression that it was what I had written. Please change the title to Enesh-jer. For some reason I can't do it. Can you also tell me how to do it?

Toctheyounger (talk) 20:36, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

It maybe an admin only function. I created a page under the correct name and transferred all info across (something you could do). I then deleted the old page (deleting pages is admin only) and checked for pages that linked to the deleted page and changed the one that did. So probably a case of giving an admin a shout if the need for this arises in the future. Also not something to do in a hurry for a page which already has links to tons of other pages. Chasing them all up is not fun.

By the way... I don't know either where 'Wu' came from.

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:51, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

Just a quick hello Edit

Hi Toc, haven't seen you around for a few days - hope all is ok!

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 12:43, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

Hey there, Egwene,

I probably forgot to mention that I'm a student, which means quite a bit of activity during week ends and holidays, vacation etc. I'm in the middle of quite a bit of stuff now. But don't worry, I've got some plans for the malazan millitary page and a few for the letherii military page too. I'll try to keep up. Thanks for inquiring. It means a lot to have friends around.


toctheyoungerToctheyounger (talk) 13:32, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

Real life... ah, yes... interferes with my editing, too! Good to hear you are well and look forward to your contributions when you can. I prefer it if you edit every now and then rather than overdoing it and facing problems in the real world as a consequence. Take care Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 14:08, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

Congrats to you, too Edit

Hi Toc,

Thanks for the message on reaching 3000. :) You should also give yourself a pat on the back. You're new, but you added to the total and we appreciate your work.

The other day I gave you some bad info (well, partly). Still learning... Re. references, when I said not to include the Book number with the Chapter number, I hadn't started the ICE Novels. I'm probably going to tell you more than you want to know, but the bottom line is that it depends on the book. If you aren't interested in the details, feel free to skip or skim the next 2 paragraphs. In an effort to be clear, I'm going to make your eyes glaze over... I'm using book with a lower case "b" to refer to an entire book, and capital "B" Book to refer to Books within a book. (insert wacko smiley). NOTE: Egwene added follow-up @ end

  • With Erickson's books, there's no need for Book numbers in refs. Erickson used Book numbers, but they didn't affect the Chapter numbers. His Chapter numbers run consecutively through— ex, Book 2, Chapter 12 followed by Book 3, Chapter 13. With that format, there was no point in adding Book numbers to the refs— Chapter 13 is just as accurate as Book 3, Chapter 13.
  • You were working on ICE Novels, which I just started. They change from book to book. (We'll ignore the Roman numerals for now.) NoK is too short to have Book numbers— no problem there. I got partway into RotCG before realizing that ICE reset to Chapt 1 with every new Book, so, for ex, there are three Chapter 2's. The only other book I have is SW, in which he uses the Erickson system... Book 2, Chapt 8 is followed by Book 3, Chapt 9.

If you wondered about what I said the other day, I'm sure you straightened it out with Egwene. Same for the Roman numerals. (pulls hair out)

Gaack! I'm quitting. Hope you skipped everything that was too obvious. I just found out there's more to it than I realized a couple of weeks ago.

Have a great morning (afternoon)! aimzzz (talk) 12:08, September 1, 2015 (UTC)

Nope... no sorting out with Egwene - she had forgotten all about the funny numbering, too, LOL. So yes, with the ICE books, for referencing, ideally, we should quote: book title, Book (Book number will do) and Chapter plus, optionally, which edition and page. Probably best to use the roman numerals as well *sigh*. Hey, confusion reigns, as they say ;) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 12:24, September 1, 2015 (UTC)

Far too many good points over there. I'll try to keep them all in mind. I kinda stopped editing for the time being because I'm starting my first re read (puts on cool black glasses) and I'm starting with GoTM which should be here in a few weeks. I'm really eager to start editing the main series. Between my daily work routine and Dresden Files (Dresden is kicking too much ass and is too much like me to forsake him right now), I  will start on these projects a few weeks from now. Thanks Aimzzz and Egwene. I'll try to get back to editing soon.
Yours Malazanaically,
Toctheyounger (talk) 17:56, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Grub and Keneb Edit

Well, a certain someone did not add any references so I was left to dig around for them. When I came across all this other stuff - seemed a shame not to add it!

Glad you are enjoying the re-read - any help with DG would be very welcome. It is not my favourite book, alas, so don't ask why I volunteered to do the Extended DP for it!?! The next chapter summary which will need looking at is 12. The summing up is not yet completed, it needs location or character headings as seen in the previous chapters, current content needs checking for accuracy, some adjustments to spelling/grammar, plus links need adding. Any contributions welcome - and you don't even need to add references *grin* Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:11, September 15, 2015 (UTC)

I felt really guilty about the references part, however I really couldn't get my books together at the time.                     DG has a strange quality, it attracts intensely, then repels you like the whirlwind (hah, puns galore, declares Kruppe, a sure master of his language. Sorry, too much GOTM for me)I will keep the references in mind. Toctheyounger (talk) 20:16, September 15, 2015 (UTC)

I know that there is a lot of stuff that can be added from memory and which can be perfectly correct but unfortunately, without the pages there in front of you, there can be small nuances which are missed and which may paint a very different picture. For example, you wrote 'When it (i.e the garrison) was ambushed he and a group of others escaped.' That sentence is only partially accurate as they left the garrison as a full company with refugees and were attacked afterwards on the road and at that point Keneb and a group of others escaped. It may only be a small difference, however, if the next person passes on what you wrote with the same degree of difference... you see my drift. At least when users come across something like that, if there is a reference they can check out these things and be certain to have the correct facts. So, I'll keep on at references and will also re-write stuff if need be. But please, rest-assured, your efforts are still much appreciated and they did form the skeleton on which I build the rest. Every bit helps, as they say. Plus, as you do more editing you begin to see those little details yourself and become just as bad as the rest of us at re-writing everything ten times, lol. There is much to be learned, I am sure wise Kruppe would agree :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:29, September 15, 2015 (UTC)
Well, I understand editing information is a risky business when you're doing it from memory. I definitely need to be more careful. And if you become that 'bad', I'm really waiting to get there. Well, I'm really glad we've got more experienced writers having our (amateur writers) backs. Otherwise this wikia would be a comedy of errors. Always appreciate your advice Egwene. Oh and yeah, Kruppe had better be wise :) Toctheyounger (talk) 10:51, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Experienced writers? No, just amateur writers who made those same mistakes in the past and are now passing the batton ;) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:59, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

GotM Chapter 4 Edit

Great edits, Toc! The eye for detail is growing fast, it seems :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 11:11, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Well, I am on a re read and with the book in my hand, I thought it would be nice to add a few details. Oh yeah, Everytime I look at those 9000+ edits I'm always left in awe, so you are going to have to take up the 'experienced' writer mantle. Just out of curiousity, did you start the wikia (since you've got all those freakishly huge number of edits) ? If you did, that would really be cool. (I don't use the word 'cool' ever, by the way)Toctheyounger (talk) 11:15, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I would have thought it pretty cool, too, but I didn't... go to this page and scroll down to Jade Raven's speech, that will tell you more about the history of this Wiki. Also, whilst 9000 may sound huge... probably about 2500 of them are me making my way through from A-Z adding the reference section at the bottom, lol. That is one aspect of the Wiki which I will take credit for... you have to thank me for the constant call for references *evil grin*. But - and it is a big but - without source references, information is only hear-say. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 11:48, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
Hood's hairy...uhm. I meant Hood's breath, so that's how it is! Yeah Egwene, we get it, references, references, refere... Ah I'm outta here. But those numbers are still impressive. How many years have you been around? And how did you get into the Malazan books?

military mages Edit

Here are some comments & places you could get info & refs. I'll be able to take a better look at it tonight or tomorrow, but here are some starters-- not exactly organized :p

You could add that there were different kinds of military mages:

  • Cadre mages who worked as a group, combining their skills under the command of a High Mage
  • High Mage
  • Squad mages who worked on a more local level, using their individual talents in coordination with the squad.

I think there are articles about each type on the Wiki that you can link. If you're lucky, they may have refs so you can get more info.

There's a lot of good info in the following parts-- just skim thru sections till you see the parts that pertain:

  • GotM: find the part in Chapter 2, where Tayschrenn calls the meeting of the mage cadre before the attack on Moon's Spawn @ Pearl & Chapter 3, mages part in the actual battle
  • MoI, in Ch 23 & 24, skip thru & find the parts about QB & the squad mages, both the planning & the actual battle-- QB is awesome in that part & I think it has some local squad mage action too. (Lol-- it may sound like I have it all at my fingertips, but the truth is that I just happened to be rereading that part last night)

As you know, there's a lot more. I just mentioned a couple of good ones I could remember off the top of my head

Under 'pre-emptive strikes', you might mention how mages try to take out the mages on the other side. Also they develop tactics to protect themselves. An example is found in the MoI section mentioned above where QB held a meeting with the other mages before the battle against the Seer at Coral. QB split up the mages among the troops so the Seer's mages couldn't wipe them all out in one onslaught of magic. Also since QB could handle so much more than the others, he made himself conspicuous to serve as a lightning rod & protect the others.

Hope some of this stuff helps. aimzzz (talk) 19:42, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch. The MoI reference can be very helpful. I already included the GoTM reference. I'll see what I can add to the article. Thanks again, Toctheyounger (talk) 19:52, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

ALSO: When you look through the chapters above, just note down the chapter number for each piece of info you pull out. Then you'll already have the ref to stuff into the brackets... all you need is the chapter number & book title :) aimzzz (talk) 19:56, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Can't tell you how much I appreciate all the suggestions. I'm really feeling out of depth on the mage warfare issue. Its all really spread out over the entire series and there are so many battles that doing a comprehensive piece on this type of warfare is increasingly turning out to be out of my scope, especially since I've read the books only once. Its very nice to know you can rely on someone to give you pointers. Thanks, Toctheyounger (talk) 20:00, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

There aren't many overviews like the one you are doing. It could get overwhelming pretty fast. I won't even tell you what I remembered in the last few minutes.

Keep in mind that you don't have to cover everything at one time. I strongly recommend pulling a few key points out of everything you've accumulated. Take each point & do a brief description with some examples here & there. More can be added later-- other points and also more detail on existing info. Anything you write now can be expanded over time. Don't be thinking that it's not enough... whatever you do now is more than there was before. Relax! aimzzz (talk) 20:28, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Sample starter outline— you already have the bones of it, with a little rearranging and REFERENCES:

1) Mage warfare or warren warfare

  • An important arm of Malazan military
  • It is an adjunct to the armes forces. A war could not be fought through magic and warrens alone.

2)Types of military mages: Cadre mages, Squad mages, High mages

3) Briefly, what do the mages do. What do different levels of mage do. (Suggestion: for now, leave out specific warrens & "flavors". Pick them up later, in round 2)

4) List of important mages & their countries of origin, main talents if availabe (optional for later)

5) Mage & counter-mage. How they try to foil each other. Here you could just say that it happens & fill in specific tactics at a later date. aimzzz (talk) 21:05, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Latest edits Edit

Hi Toc,

Thanks for the edits on the GotM chapters. As you said... it's all in the details. There is a lot of scope for improvement on that front as many of the chapter summaries, not just those of GotM are currently mostly giving the framework. Obviously, apart from MoI where John has not left a pebble unturned.

Had a look at the Military page - looks like you have already implemented some of the excellent advice Aimzzz came up with. I have added a few more details. As you have quite rightly said... referencing something like that is a bit of a nightmare. Hopefully with all of us taking a look at it, the page is going to be factually correct and we'll just have to try and add references to it as and when we come across relevant information.

Great to see you have entered DCT for the ongoing staff meetings :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 21:12, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Great edits on the military page. I just saw them and I now feel a little more comfortable with the dissemination of information. For some reason, you can strucuure information very well, and you have done that here. I was about to add Beak's name (I had just remembered it this morning) but you had it covered. I also like the way you moved the note down to notes and references section. The Claw thing for countering mages was something that slipped from right under my nose.

Oh and do I have to attend the staff meetings? You remember that Sapper squad leader who Coltaine couldn't bring to his staff meetings? I'll leave it at that :)   Toctheyounger (talk) 10:03, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

LOL... I'll be sure to send the heavies out to get you should there be an important meeting! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:29, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

New pages Edit

No block, no admin only, no reason I can think of. How do you create pages? I normally put the name in the Wiki search box, then click on the red link in the text: 'Create the page "????" on this wiki!' , then add text to the edit box, then click 'publish'. Alternatively, I click on any red link in a page/DP/or wherever it may be and then follow the same steps.

Rest assured that you are not blocked in any way.

Sorry I grabbed Imotan from you. I just take a look at the wanted pages every now and then and pick one at random. Wish I had known, would have happily left him to you. He was not exactly mister nice guy...

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 08:18, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Oh thanks for that tip. I'm definitely trying it out right now. And thanks for the Imotan thing. If Cam ever came close to SE's style of writing, it would be Toc Elder's arc. Oh, I would chafe at you writing Imotan's page, but you know what happens, I open a new page to be edited and then keep it open for  3 or 4 days, then the laptop gets restarted :) It's a weakness of mine, I suppose, that I keep delaying things. Well, Thanks for all that info.

Toctheyounger (talk) 08:30, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Chert Edit

Good morning, Toc :) Just made a few edits to chapter 11. Something about the section with Chert didn't ring true with me. When I checked his page and the reference there, I couldn't actually see anywhere a confirmation that he really was the doorman of the Phoenix Inn. I think that we have in the past deducted it from him acting like one on that occasion, however, the DP entry and chapter 11 don't have anything in them to confirm that so I changed the chapter as well as his page. As I was reading the section, I thought 'well, just hope Kruppe wasn't aware that he was sending this guy to his death'!!!Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 09:18, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Mornin', my lady.

I wanted to ask who made the original entries for the GotM chapters, really superb work. I'm just adding a few details here and there. I left Chert's entries alone, mostly. I agree there's no place where Chert is mentioned as a guard. So I figured I had missed that detail somewhere. Anyhow, glad you sorted that out.

Well, I really thought the same thing as you about when Chert was asked to do that. I really thought what sent Sorry over the edge was the fact that chert threatened to 'force' himself on her, if you know what I mean. Particularly nasty, that scene. If you recall, Meese and Irilta agree that they have to protect themselves and don't object to the way Sorry handled herserlf. That means Chert had a nasty streak. If thats the case, I really can't feel sorry (no pun intended) for the guy.

Toctheyounger (talk) 10:02, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Crone Edit

Crone is always just 'Crone' rather than 'the' Crone, same as in the books. She is definitely a personality all in her own right :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 09:32, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Oh allright. I'm really laughing all over right now. I kept referring to the Crone as 'it' in all my edits. Thanks for letting me know. Toctheyounger (talk) 10:03, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Edit histories Edit

If you click on the history button for any given page you can see who did what and when. As with Chert, in many cases we take over an article which was previously edited and add, but leave the old stuff. For example, when I added the reference section to every page, I did change some pages to past tense and edited one or two things which jumped out at me, but there was no way I could check over every page. It's going to be an ongoing, slow process, winnowing out some of those old incorrect passages, often made just from memory. And... you know what I am about to say... that is why references are our friends :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 12:21, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Gotcha. References.

Gardens of the Moon Edit

Thank you, its nice to feel appreciated. I do put a lot of thought into design and layout, frequently that is just copying what other wikis have done well, but some is original too. --Jade Raven (talk to me) 14:22, September 23, 2015 (UTC)

Well, it does take a lot of effort, I know. I just started working on web development, and although most stuff is just protocol and following steps, the first time around something loopy always comes around. Great work on the Gardens of the Moon Chapters too, by the way. Hope to see you around. Cheers, Toctheyounger (talk) 20:08, September 23, 2015 (UTC)

ref uploading of images Edit

No, you should only up-load images where you have the permission of the artist. So the bad news is that I have deleted the file. The good news is that we already do have the image, uploaded by Luktarig (aka Corporal Nobbs) himself, and I have re-insert that one in your page. When you do up-load images with permission, make sure you credit the artist and where at all possible, link the image back to the artist's Deviant Art page/homepage or whichever page they might have. The file will also need categories and inserting in artist's own gallery if, like CN, they have one. Don't worry if that sounds complicated. Just shout for help or take a look at the coding for example of the one I have just inserted into chapter 15. But yes, it is absolutely imperative that you do have the express permission of the artist before you upload. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 19:20, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for all those pointers. Its a little complicated, but I'll have a look at teh Coding for that chapter. Thanks again. I wanted to make sure I was doing things ethically. Yours Malazanaically, Toctheyounger (talk) 19:29, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

No worries, Toc. You did a good job on that chapter and well spotted that that image was right for it :) I only made a few small edits - one section needed a bit of changing as you got the timings in a twist - but otherwise, great write-up!!! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 19:47, September 25, 2015 (UTC)
Rake's way, Hound's dismay, Edit away
Sorry, couldn't resist it. Nice to know you've got our backs. A lot of times, that mixing up of timeline happens. I had a look at the malazanempire forum. I just realized there are so many people who contributed to encyclopedia malazaica which formed a precursor to this wikia. So much effort for this thing. SE really had to do something special to get such dedicated volunteers for malazan information sites. Makes me appreciate stuff more. Cheers, Toctheyounger (talk) 20:12, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

Tiste Andii Edit

Hey thanks! And sure! I'm going to try summarizing the final "book" in memories of ice, but afterward I'll take a look at the Tiste Andii page. Johntocaelpiano (talk) 13:23, September 26, 2015 (UTC)

All sorts Edit

I jiggled the Anomander/Baruk section a bit to sort the timeline. Thanks for improving the GotM summaries so much. Talking about summaries... John has finished MoI. Totally awesome, don't you agree. Anyway... check out the Malazan Wiki:3000 page for his 'oscars' speech. You are mentioned in dispatches, as they say :) All of which leads me to say 'where is yours?!' Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 08:32, September 28, 2015 (UTC)

Lorn Edit

That's a great idea, Toc. I have always liked Lorn's character. She seemed to try and do the right thing but always ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Question is where to put such an article. The main page would be wrong as that is designated as an information page and I don't think that the usual speculation section would be the right place. Maybe we ought to create a new Wiki section for that kind of essay. Others might want to contribute similar pages for other characters.

I would say, write your article and, for the time being, post it on Lorn's discussion page. I am going to be pretty tied up over the next couple of weeks with one thing and another, but after that, let's take a look and see how best to fit that sort of stuff into the current frame work.

Look forward to reading it :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:06, September 28, 2015 (UTC)

I don't know about if she always wanted to do the right thing. My problem with her wasn't even that (not everyone does the right thing plus 'right' is relative). My problem with her was she never did what she wanted. That's a major hurdle to her personality and her unique characterestics. I don't think I would have grudged her anything had she decided to kill Tattersail because she found it the right thing to do.  Anyhow, I'll start it in due time, and I have a feeling its going to be a while before I complete it, it'll take a while. Thanks, Toctheyounger (talk) 07:47, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, didn't she just retreat into herself in that scene at the dinner. I suppose I didn't phrase it very well... it's what I meant, she did what she thought was for the good of everyone else, the right thing to do, but it lands her on the 'wrong side' with, as you said, right and wrongs being a matter of perspective. From my point of view, had there been more exchange of opinions and background info, Lorn was someone who could have easily become and ally to Paran and co. Behind those walls she put up seemed to be a really likable person which only we, the readers, were allowed to meet occasionally. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 08:38, September 29, 2015 (UTC)
I guess I'll just get to writing the piece to let you know what I mean. It doesn't matter what is right for everyone else, or even what is right. My opinion being, she never knew right or wrong. If you remember the doubts she starts having at the barrow, and again before the fete in Darujhistan, my understanding was she never decided for herself at all, never mind right or wrong. Everytime she started making a decision for herself, the Adjunct (extension of Empress' will and all that) started imposing on her own (Lorn's) personality. About Paran, her relationship with him convinced me that the theme that I was onto was really there. Going back from the barrow towards Darujhistan, she wishes Paran was with her and that she might have felt something for him. There's always an undercurrent of feelings that she has for Paran, starting from the massacre at Itko Kan when he is so honest and straightforward, and manages to surprise her. Its another thing that he's unaware of her feelings and a bit... how shall I put it?...I don't know, when a guy is naive and thinks there's nothing there (no feelings I mean, ahhh I'm at a loss to explain it, though it's something I'm more than familiar with). I really don't know if he would have helped her regain her own humanity and helped her leave the Empress and the Adjunct, and be herself. She's aware and mature enough to make her own opinions. It gets to me every time because I have a soft spot for anyone who's had a tough time growing up and never been exposed to more...human feelings like compassion or honesty or even love. Sorry for the long explanation. I just felt I had to get through here. Btw, my essay on her personality is goingto be on the same lines. Toctheyounger (talk) 09:28, September 29, 2015 (UTC) 
I am really looking forward to your essay, Toc. As I said... she was a character I was really sad to see end in that way. I wonder if you will make a comparison between her and Tavore... No, don't answer that... otherwise, your entire essay will end up here in our discussion. Let's leave the discussion for afterwards :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:24, September 29, 2015 (UTC)
I'd rather discuss something as elusive as a person's character here with a malazan expert than on her page where its open for everyone to see, being an opinion of mine. Discussing it here also helps me put things in perspective. Nevertheless, I'm going to discuss it more in the article. Spoiler alert.... No, no comparisons between Tavore and Lorn for a number of reasons. More on that in the article, but basically because they come from extrememly different worlds, have different character strengths and weaknesses and have very different motivations. Toctheyounger (talk) 10:32, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

Speech Edit

Ok, bonus point for making it, but did you have to join in the 'make Egwene blush' chorus???!!! Well, thanks, anyway... for your kind words even if they were put on way too thick!!!! As punishment, you'll have to go back to your speech and sign it... with the four squiggles, that is ;) Yours malazasperated, Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:17, September 28, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, Egwene, I absolutely didn't mean any of those flattering things I said. I just wanted to flatter you so that I could get a few of your edit numbers and boost mine... nah just messing with you. If you don't want people to tell nice things about you, just become a bad person. You know, you don't have to be very good to everyoneToctheyounger (talk) 07:50, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

LOL... *throws up hands in the air*... Yours, totally Malazasperated, Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 08:40, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

Hi Toc,

the page about deaths in the books I currently being compiled by Matrim. It would probably be best, to avoid confusion, to only add missing info up to the point he has got to or note them on the discussion page. Or send him a message and work it out between you. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:18, September 29, 2015 (UTC)

Tiste Andii Edit

Hey John & Toc,

I'm putting the same message in both of your Talk pages. Your additions to the Tiste Andii page are great. BUT where are your references? All you need is the chapter number and you could quit hearing about it. In this case, you wouldn't even need to crack the book to find the chapter #. There just happens to be a good summary you could check. Hint: Memories of Ice/Chapter 25. Here's the format:

Some sentence about Tiste Andii.<ref>[[Memories of Ice]], Chapter 25</ref>

Here's how it will look:

Some sentence about Tiste Andii.[1]

In this case you can, er, copy & paste from above. Just paste in whenever there's a new fact.

Try it... you will like getting bugged less :) aimzzz (talk) 13:36, October 1, 2015 (UTC)

Hey Aimzzz, 

I told Johntoc but he just wouldn't listen. Kidding. I just finished a page on Stimins and you'll be happy to know I used references without you telling me. Read my editor comment. I'm sure you'll laugh. Toctheyounger (talk) 13:48, October 1, 2015 (UTC)

Notes and ReferencesEdit

References Edit

Hey Toc! Egwene's away for a while, so I'm the interim butt-kicker.

I just saw your new Stimins page. I'll take back the last msg if you keep at it! ;)

I never used the visual editor, but whatever you did worked great. Thanks & keep it up! aimzzz (talk) 13:53, October 1, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I figured she was away for a while, she hasn't been around much. I really hope everything's fine on her end. By the way, you people all seem to know each other. Is there like a forum that you people are on?

Anyhow, I was talking to Egwene about a certain blog that I'm working on about the Adjunct Lorn's personality . I would appreciate it if you swung around and had a look at it. Mind you its still in the works and its a personal opinion piece, nevertheless...     Yours Malazanaically, Toctheyounger (talk) 14:05, October 1, 2015 (UTC)

Eneth-jer Edit

Hi, Toc. Newly minted admin, ArchieVist, here. Sorry to butt in on you and Aimzzz. I was running through my daily scan of the Wanted list and saw your Enesh-jer fix. I corrected a typo on the Dramatis Personae page. Eneth-jer should drop off in the next 24 hours when the list updates.

Keep up the good work!--ArchieVist (talk) 16:27, October 1, 2015 (UTC)

Oh so the list updates every 24 hours, I see. Well, its nice to finally make your acquiantance, ArchieVist. Like that name, it reminds me of the Archivist from Dresden files. Well, yeah Aimzzz seems to have dropped off for a while. Good to see you on the Admin list, hope you are enjoying it. Cheers, Toctheyounger (talk) 16:37, October 1, 2015 (UTC)

Icaruim Edit

Hi Toc, I did a little rewording in tCG section of Icarium. Had to take out "hammered", tho it's much more satisfying than alternatives. ;)

Could you plz add refs to that section? It's all from chapter 24.

Thanks, aimzzz (talk) 20:04, October 2, 2015 (UTC)

Haha, I was simply describing the fashion in which Pung took out the Forkrul. I'm really missing my copy of tCG, so it'll be a while before I can find it and reference. Did you check out my blog? I'm really looking forward to feedback from someone experienced in writing. Yours hammer-ingly, Toctheyounger (talk) 20:08, October 2, 2015 (UTC) 

  • Hammered was the right word for that situation, but I couldn't leave it that way. I haven't had a chance to read your blog, but was planning to start in on it tonight or tomorrow. You've really put a lot of thought into it. More later ;) aimzzz (talk) 20:29, October 2, 2015 (UTC)

BTW I asked Jade Raven to plz add a Blogs link to the sidebar.

Lorn Edit

I'm just starting, but here's a suggestion off the top. It would be a good idea to add brackets to the first mention of Lorn's name so people can click over & see Lorn page. It wouldn't be a bad idea to bracket the name of each character (first mention only) in case the reader forgot who the character is or wants a little more info. aimzzz (talk) 21:09, October 2, 2015 (UTC)

I'll get to it then.

Hyuke and Puller Edit

Hi, Toc! I'm reviewing the entries you made on these two and I'm having trouble figuring out one sentence.

"The two ex-watchmen accompanied Bakune, Manask and Ipshank to the Temple of the Lady, Abbot and Cloister."

I haven't read the book in a bunch of years. Are they going to the temple and cloister to see the abbot?--ArchieVist (talk) 01:54, October 3, 2015 (UTC)

Have a look at the latest edits. They were all going there to confront the Abbott, but instead found him murdered by the lady who had possessed a young girl. Follow the reference for more details. Toctheyounger (talk) 06:37, October 3, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Toc. By the way, you don't have to put "Stonewielder" as one of the categories on the character pages. That's for use to refer to the book itself. So pages for the chapters and dramatis personae, for example, get categorized that way.--ArchieVist (talk) 15:29, October 3, 2015 (UTC)
Gotcha, Toctheyounger (talk) 16:15, October 3, 2015 (UTC)

Images Edit

Hi, good to see you again as well, Toc :)

About the images... I have added two Silanah vs Raest images to Chapter 21 as that is where they actually meet. We haven't got the third image - unless someone gets permission we can't upload that one.

Ref.: Vorcan... Have you read Orb, Scepter, Throne? There are some answers to that question in there. RAFO otherwise ;)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 14:45, October 9, 2015 (UTC)

I was just thinking of reading OST. I'm thinking of starting editing chapter pages there. I'll see what I can dig up. Have you had time to read that blog on Lorn ? I am really eager for your thoughts on it. I'll get to a final draft in a week when I've got sometime to breath. Cheers, Toctheyounger (talk) 14:52, October 9, 2015 (UTC)


I enjoyed OST, hope you do too :)
I was just reading your description of the fight Rake vs the Galayn. It is really good but could you condense it? I am a bit concerned that the description goes way beyond what could reasonably be called a summary. After all, we don't want our summaries to replace the books. What do your think?
I have not yet read your essay on Lorn as I was waiting to read it in one go once you had completed it. Does that mean you have? If so, I shall try and get round to it over the weekend. Look forward to it!

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 15:11, October 9, 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking I got a little descriptive there. The fact is I enjoyed that scene a lot, and you could call it bias on my part. If you think it's a little too descriptive and a shorter version is better, you can summarize it. No use asking me to do it, I'm a guy and I think action sequences are really cool so I get gung-ho about them :). Nevertheless, in the interests of keeping a summary a summary, I still think it's a good idea if you summarize it and maybe remove the quote too, it's not really needed. 

As for Lorn, since they are ideas that keep evolving and I keep getting epiphanies about her character (the character is really really complex) the more I think about it. I believe I'll keep editing it. Nevertheless, it is in final draft stage now, so go ahead and read it. Most of my ideas are already there. Toctheyounger (talk) 15:26, October 9, 2015 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, the ending quote is not really required either. Sorry I didn't read the part about you asking me to summarize it. I'll try, but no promises. I'm doing it now. Toctheyounger (talk) 15:30, October 9, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that, Toc. I know that must have hurt because the description of the fight was good. My concern is that describing a fight almost blow for blow really could upset the authors. It is different when the same information is distributed over several pages i.e. Rake/Galayn/Darujhistan etc. Having it in a summary like that is telling a story rather than giving 'dry' information. Think 'Instruction manual' rather than 'gripping story' when you are editing. If people want the latter, they are supposed to buy the books :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:44, October 9, 2015 (UTC)

OST Edit

I see you have started OST, Toc. Definitely my favourite of the ICE books :)

A few editing tips...

When you create a new page, always add at least one category. You'll find a link to the category index in the Navigation box on the home page. I do check the Wiki regularly for uncategorized pages and it would save a bit of work.

For characters, a brief spoiler free intro first, then add the information under relevant book headings.

Again, same as with the summaries, present the information in a very factual way rather than a story telling style and avoid transcribing verbatim as much as possible.

For the references - thank you for adding those :) - only link the book title as a published book is the source. Linking to a chapter page here on the Wiki makes no sense. I know there are a few refs like it around and would be grateful if you do see them anywhere if you could change them.

For the page names, on the whole, it should be just the name, without titles. Put the various mutations into the search box first to see if the page already exists. If, as in the case of Scholar Ebbin, you think that users might look under the name with title and the page in his name already exists, create a re-direct as I did.

Hope you'll find these tips useful :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:11, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

New page ticked all boxes. Thanks for that. Saves quite a bit of work. I forgot to mention that chapter numbers are always quoted in numerals.
How are you enjoying the book? Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:26, October 12, 2015 (UTC)
I have already read the book, so this is something of a re-read.
I took a look at the OST DP page. Dreshen Harad 'Ul is listed as Captain Dreshen Harad 'Ul. Shouldn't it be just Dreshen Harad 'Ul. Per instructions above, no titles right?
Toctheyounger (talk) 18:12, October 12, 2015 (UTC) 

Yes, no title. I have changed some of the links in the DP so that when created they will link back to page without title. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 18:24, October 12, 2015 (UTC)


OST is a nice book. I was looking for something light to read, and thought I would edit alongside. Its holding me back a bit, but I keep understanding a lot of details, so its a great experience. What are you reading?  Toctheyounger (talk) 19:17, October 12, 2015 (UTC)

Pella Edit

Hi Toc,

The page for Pella was totally legitimate. Next time you come across something like that it would be a good idea to first check the given reference ;)

I have transferred the content of old and new to separate new pages and inserted disambiguation link on Pella page.

Yours, as ever, malzaniacally, Egwene :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 09:54, October 15, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Egwene.

Can you head over to the Seguleh page and check it out? I have added some information and would be grateful if you confirmed it or at least gave me some feedback on it. Speaking of feedback, have gone over the blog on Lorn yet? Its complete, though the formatting is a mess. Oh, you stole my signing off tactic. Its copyrighted you know :) Though somehow you make it sound better.

Yours malazanaically, Toctheyounger (talk) 10:01, October 15, 2015 (UTC)

About Pella, that page was in the Seguleh section of DP, so when I started editing it, it came out to be someone from the CG. The link there was wrong. I suppose I should have checked the link. Anyhow, glad you sorted it out.Toctheyounger (talk) 10:03, October 15, 2015 (UTC)

You may have spotted it already, Toc - I have now created the Orb Sceptre Throne/Extended Dramatis Personae page. Don't add any characters to the original DP on the main book page. That should remain exactly as published. Add them to the EDP instead.

No, sorry, I have not yet had a chance to look at it... by the time I have done everything I have to do, there never seems to be time left. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten but this is the busiest time of year for me so you'll have to be patient on that point.

Guess I will have to think up a new sig :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 11:04, October 15, 2015 (UTC)

New pages Edit

Just to say, thank you Toc, for all the new pages you have added. Especially as they all follow spoiler friendly lay-out, are pretty informative, have categories, links and references! One happy smile here :) ... or two :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 11:14, October 15, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd had it on my mind for a while but i couldn't find time till today. I'll continue adding pages on the Seguleh and other characters as I advance my re-read. Yours, Toctheyounger (talk) 11:21, October 15, 2015 (UTC)

Blog editing tips Edit

I just have a brief free moment now, but I'll give a longer response tomorrow.

  1. I can't edit your blog post any more, which is interesting. Might be a time-limited option for admins only.
  2. If you can switch into source view when editing you should see a lot extraneous formatting tags (eg.

    and ). These are causing the problem. From this I can see you have cut and paste from Calibre ebooks for the quotes.

  3. A quick way around this is to cut and paste every thing into notepad and then cut and paste it back. This should remove the formatting, but you would have to put all the links back in again.
  4. I actually don't even know how to use the default editor interface, I use the original old one which shows everything as raw code. As an alternative to above try switching to the "Source" tab when editing to see the raw code and review the coloured bits. Select and delete the ones that look like formatting, but not the links and headers. Use preview regularly to figure out if you just deleted something important, if you do just cancel the edit and start again.

That's all for now, let me know if you need more help. --Jade Raven Admin tag 4 (talk to me) 04:05, October 16, 2015 (UTC)

Really grateful for your response, it clears a few things. I'm going to go with the notepad option and take it from there. Interesting about the admin access. Also HTML coding isn't exactly my strong suit and I use the newer versions, but I'm going to start learning the coding, its much more useful that way. Thanks again for your response. Yours, Toctheyounger (talk) 11:03, October 16, 2015 (UTC)

Blogs only show in default-skin and can be edited by the user and admins. You may find this Wiki help page useful. I have edited some typos and minor grammatical stuff. Send you a PM on Empire forum with some constructive (hope that is how you see it) criticism. Yours, still malazaniacally (have not yet found a better sig) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 13:23, October 16, 2015 (UTC)

Reference Tyrant Kings Edit

Chapter summaries should only contain information up until that chapter. For the rest... RAFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *evil grin*

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:52, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

... anyway... it says 'known'... not 'all' Tyrants ;)

Edits Edit

Great job on OST info, Toc. I did change the Cabal page a little but tried not to add much spoiler info. Just keep editing it as you get to the relevant bits :) I forgot to mention that when you add any characters to the extended DP, put the link in italics so that it can be distinguished from the original DP. I also only just noticed that I did not put the original DP names in bold as in Gardens of the Moon/Extended Dramatis Personae for example. I leave it up to you if you want to adjust that or not. It's probably not really necessary in any case. Hope you are enjoying the book! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 21:34, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Hey there Egwene, Thanks for the compliment. I'll look into the DP thing. Oh, and I have already read the book before, I'm on a re read, so spoiler away, that's fine with me. I'm just discovering how much I missed, which might be the source of my stupid questions to you. Thanks again, Toctheyounger (talk) 15:03, October 20, 2015 (UTC)

OST Chapter 3 Edit

Hi Toc,

I have made a few changes to the chapter. Nothing major, just trying to condense info as much as possible. Also made a few changes to make it easier to understand the sequence of events during the fight.

With the Seguleh, rather than writing 'First Seguleh', better to use 'First' on it's own as that is how they use the title amongst themselves or use 'Seguleh First' as that's how others mostly think of them in the books.

Keep going - reading your summaries, I have found a few bits I totally missed on my own read of the book :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:43, October 20, 2015 (UTC)


I've been trying my level best to keep the information dry and to a minimum as much as possible, but I don't want to compromise length for detail, in other words, I want to give enough info to the reader to make sense of the situation at hand; not condense stuff to the point of incoherence. But thanks for making the sequence coherent, I sometimes embark on really long sentences that stop making sense somewhere in the middle. I have to get rid of that habit.

I'll keep the 'First' in mind.  Thanks again, Yours malazanaically, Toctheyounger (talk) 15:12, October 20, 2015 (UTC)

I have notice that your edits are getting much more, what I would call, professional. *thumbs up*
Glad that you have read OST so I can ask you a question... When editing the Cabal page, I copied a detail across from Derudan's page. I had not realized that she was the witch whom Kruppe visited. Do you happen to know where in the book that connection is made? I would like to add the reference as that is quite a profound statement to be sitting there unsupported.
Changed the Pella link you edited as it linked to the disambiguation page for that name. Amongst the terms which link to disambiguation are Pella, Jan, Fist, Coral, Kron, Logros and Morn. These will need the specific page name with desired display name after | to link to the correct page.
I have come across several comments on forum and reddit recently where people have spoken about a chapter summary on the Wiki coming in handy. So your work is definitely going to be appreciated by Malazan fans when they get to OST :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 18:15, October 20, 2015 (UTC)
I cannot at this point confirm about the Derudan thing, though Scorch and Leff killing the Legate is true. Let me confirm that further (I can only do that when I re read the relevant chapter and its going to be a while till I reach there). Feel free to look it up in your own copy, I'll probably get there in 3-4 weeks so it'll be a while. 
Thanks for clearing up Pella. I swear I'll never touch that page again.
Yours Malazanaically, Toctheyounger (talk) 15:52, October 21, 2015 (UTC)

Mengal Edit

A good idea, but I noticed a few things.

  • The arrow points to Mengal (the city/town), but the article is about the Mengal Mountains.
  • The mountains as described "a backbone along the west coast of Genabackis" are actually reasonably clear to spot.
  • I would have created a cropped map, rather than putting the arrow on it. Something like this:

--Jade Raven Admin tag 4 (talk to me) 09:14, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

That is a very good idea. I see you haven't changed the page. I'll do it right now. Also, I'm assuming you uploaded directly from your computer. The formatting is similiar on the page proper, and is a bit messy compared to the maps on the Genebackis page. Any suggestions or ideas to make it neater?

Toctheyounger (talk) 09:32, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

Never mind, I just figured that out. I changed the font size using the command in source editor. Thanks, Toctheyounger (talk) 09:45, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

Hi Toc, I have taken out the font changes to keep the page in line with the rest of the Wiki. As for the image... whilst it maybe a good idea, all the images uploaded to the Wiki are subject to copyright laws which in most cases means that you are not supposed to alter them which is why I have replaced the map with the original one. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 12:41, October 22, 2015 (UTC)
The font thing was really a test. The regular font wasn't working for the cleanliness of the page when I created it,. I was actually wondering when you would notice it and edit the font :).Thanks for removing the image thing. I figure it wouldn't have been more helpful any way. Even so, Jade's idea of enlargening the picture wasn't a bad one, in fact it would be more helpful. No matter. Thankfully, I got to the references for Mengal mountains before you could chastize me. Phew, that was a close one :)  
Toctheyounger (talk) 12:49, October 22, 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I noticed much earlier but the site was down for maintenance, lol. Anyway... where refs are concerned, I now assume that if they are not yet there, you are likely still working on them. I think Jade's idea of a zoom crop is brilliant. As it does not alter the image and the original is likely to be on the same page as well, I can't see anyone objecting. By the way, I have deleted the one which you altered, to be on the safe side. Especially, as I am not too sure where it is from, i.e., if it is from one of the special editions or something a fan cobbled together. Thanks for checking the edits I made earlier and correcting a few bits I had missed. I moved a few detail out of the spoiler region as they happened within the previous references and were not spoilerish as such. Good call including the added detail about Jan within the spoiler area even though it was not his page. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 13:02, October 22, 2015 (UTC)


Why did you create a new version that appears to be the same as the one I made? Such duplication seems unnecessary to me. You can reduce the size by specifying the pixel width like so [[File:Mengal.png|300px]]. If there is a problem with the original image you can overwrite it by clicking on the "Upload a new version of this file" link in that images file history section. --Jade Raven Admin tag 4 (talk to me) 01:48, October 23, 2015 (UTC)

I have deleted the duplicate and put the original in the article. --Jade Raven (talk to me) 06:11, October 29, 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I'm really sorry, I had it on my to do list but totally forgot. Thanks for doing it, Toctheyounger (talk) 06:21, October 29, 2015 (UTC)

Sulerem Edit

Hi Toc, good to see you again :)

Go ahead, I think your idea about a separate page a la Gotho's Folly for Sulerem is excellent! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:10, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

You mean for "Histories of Genabackis"? I already have created one for Sulerem of Mengal. Toctheyounger (talk) 18:13, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is what I meant with 'a la Gothos' Folly'. Sorry, should have made that a bit clearer. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 18:32, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

OST Extended DPEdit

Hi, Toc. Its great to see you filling in the blanks on OST!

When you have some time can you make a formatting change on the Extended Dramatis Personae page? Any character who appears in the Dramatis Personae at the front of the book should have three ''' marks before and after their name to bold the name.

Example: Aman.

The new names you add should continue to have the two '' marks to italicize them. This will make your additions more visible and put the EDP in line with the others. Thanks!--ArchieVist (talk) 14:55, November 5, 2015 (UTC)

I'll let AV know that I was the guilty party originally, Toc, and that I said to you 'change it or leave it' whichever, lol. Let me know if you want to make those changes otherwise, I'll do them. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 16:38, November 5, 2015 (UTC)

K'ess Edit

Hi Toc, still enjoying OST?! Ok... here is my reasoning for the sequence of events: Aragan leaves the Rhivi. Next scene sees him arriving with his Rhivi in front of the Malazan defense - at which point the Rhivi and Seguleh go off fighting each other. Aragan goes to find the person in charge. He finds K'ess and asks about the butchers bill at which point K'ess tell him about the 40%. It seems pretty obvious that those 40% had happened before Aragan arrived (substantiated as well by the PoV of the soldiers just prior to Aragan arriving). K'ess would have no idea about whom Aragan brought in any case so would not have been able to estimate any figures for those troops.

Good work on adding the chapter refs :)

I'll do the bolding - have just done it on a couple of new EDP set-ups so I am in practice!

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 19:03, November 5, 2015 (UTC)

Well, the Rhivi fought the Seguleh in front of Fists K'ess and Steppen, and K'ess decided to take off, leaving behind Steppen for a hopeless rearguard action. That happened in front of the two fists, not Aragan.(Chapter 15) Aragan came later in the aftermath, finding most of the Rhivi injured and was urged by a Rhivi woman to go on and attack the Seguleh. He arrives later (that incident with a regular telling him he was the commanding officer) after the Seguleh attack on malazans has happened and asks K'ess what the butcher's bill is, and K'ess replies 40% and they withdraw to the head of the hill. The rhivi have brought the malazans some time to do so. They retreat, and watch as the Seguleh get bombed by the moranth. (Chapter 17) . So in short, Aragan came only with dreshen and after the initial engagement.

Thanks for doing the EDP's.   Toctheyounger (talk) 19:36, November 5, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Which is why I changed what you had written originally: He (K'ess) joined up with Aragan and his soldiers, bringing the number of Malazan infantry to roughly ten thousand troops. They were charged by roughly four hundred Seguleh, and a veritable slaughter ensued, the remnants regrouping behind a shield wall up the valley. Waiting to get charged again, he witnessed the Seguleh getting bombed by the Moranth, and met Attache Torn of the Moranth. He also intuited the fact that the Moranth intended to do the same to the entire city of Darujhistan should it come to that.
By the way, I have added your name to the EDP projects list in DCT as you are doing OST additions.
Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:48, November 5, 2015 (UTC)
Ah, ok, I get you. Was going to look at the ten thousand bit later. Check the changes I have made and see what you think (if necessary, access from Recent Changes page).
Ref searches... I'll take a look at it later - might need re-directs for the alternate apostrophe... thanks for the heads-up on that. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:02, November 6, 2015 (UTC)

Bo and Agull'en Edit

Hi. I just saw your edits on these two pages and it would be really nice if you could just go back and add links to all linkable words. Also, I am pretty sure the Bo references should be Chapter 8 of OST, instead of 6?

Hello back...whoever you are.I did add 'links to all linkable words' originally. I noticed the mistakes on the refs, and was  about to change them back. I have done so now. Thank you for bringing it to my notice. Toctheyounger (talk) 19:12, November 6, 2015 (UTC) 

Italics on EDP Edit

Hi Toc,

To get the italics effect when you add names to the EDP - put the two apostrophes in front and behind the link brackets and you're done :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 21:06, November 6, 2015 (UTC)

Ref edit collision Edit

First off, Toc, I am obviously really sorry that you lost all that work. I know what it's like as I have that happened to me although not in the same way. I am a bit surprised though as you should have had a warning come up that you were editing an out of date version. The warning would also then have given you the option to insert your edits into the newer version. I have to go now but maybe we can take a look at it later and do some experiments to see if this doesn't work in default skin which I assume you were using. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 13:28, November 12, 2015 (UTC)

I had a play with various options and whether in MonoBook or default skin, logged in or logged out, it always came up with a warning when I was editing an out-of date version when I hit the publish button. There really shouldn't be any problem with overlapping editing as once you get that warning you have the option to edit your edit into the other one. If you see the warning and are not sure which of the options to choose, probably best to C&P your edit temporarily into a work doc. Hope this helps :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:44, November 13, 2015 (UTC)
Got it, Thanks. Toctheyounger (talk) 11:15, November 13, 2015 (UTC)

Good news, Toc. JR has designed a template for you: Template:WIP If you stick that on the page whilst you are working on it, I'll hold fire - otherwise I shall assume that in case of edit collisions you'll use the previously mentioned methods. :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 13:28, November 13, 2015 (UTC)

This seems to me to be something like calling out the Bridgeburners just for holding back the street crowds as the Emperor parades (slightly bad analogy, forgive me for that). In other words, it is really officious looking. I'll have to personally thank JR for this. Sounds like a very good solution to me. One question though,should I remove it when I'm done by erasing the template for it, as in removing {{</span>WIP|<your-user-name>'}} from the top of the page?Toctheyounger (talk) 13:38, November 13, 2015 (UTC)

I never called the cavalry - JR obviously read our exchange and had a 'lightbulb moment' :)
Yes, when you are done, if you could remove the template, that would be good :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 14:10, November 13, 2015 (UTC)
I have a security concern though. Can this template be used by Wikia members only? If some random contributor from outside decides to use this template for malicious get the idea. I'm assuming JR is also reading this exchange (a la NSA? They're also probably reading this exchange for whatever reason:)). It would be a good idea if only members could use it just for national security purposes, so to speak.Toctheyounger (talk) 14:50, November 13, 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern, Toc. Don't think it will be a problem though as the template is for information purposes only and does not lock the page or anything like that. We are patrolling the Wiki pretty regularly and any edits can be undone at the push of a button. If someone added the note and didn't show up again it would be easy enough to remove. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 16:58, November 13, 2015 (UTC)

Hopefully I am using this reply function right--thanks very much to both you and Aimzzz for helping me get on here.  I usually like to think of myself as relatively computer saavy, but have been roundly disposessed of that this morning!

Hopefully I am using this reply function right--thanks very much to both you and Aimzzz for helping me get on here.  I usually like to think of myself as relatively computer saavy, but have been roundly disposessed of that this morning!

MttSmth (talk) 18:07, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

Crossbow page Edit

Thanks for your edits, Toc - I had to dash off before checking the page over and then clean forgot. Also good to have the additional info - there is still a lot more to be added, I think. I was quite surprised earlier to realize we did not yet have a page for this weapon which features so heavily in the books. I was going to add the page ref to your entry for the claw (under known users) but could not find it in DG/21. Could it be from a different chapter?

On a different subject - when you create new character pages, would you mind marking them as spoiler friendly in the EDP for that book by adding a ♦ behind the name? Assuming of course that the page is in fact laid out in a spoiler friendly way :) If you look at the GotM EDP, you see what I mean. If we all check over the odd page here and there and mark those and new ones straight away, then the 'spoiler checks to do' heap should reduce gradually!Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 19:14, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits, Egwene :) Crossbows are used a lot, though there are quite a few weapons used throughout the series. I suppose we could start working through them, though that is going to take quite a while. Specific weapons definitely deserve special pages (eg. Moranth munitions). Crossbows and swords are pretty common place. Still its nice to have a page on them. As for the Claw. Kalam ambushes a hand of the claw in malaz city. When he's done killing them, he recovers a crossbow, which is where I got the description. I did add the page ref. I'm not sure what the problem was with the ref, though.

"A moment later Kalam was searching their bodies, collecting throwing stars, throwing knives, two braces of short, wide-bladed stickers, a garrotte and the most cherished prize of all, a ribless Claw crossbow, screw-loaded, compact and deadly—if only at close range. Eight quarrels accompanied it, each one with an iron head that glistened with the poison called White Paralt."

I've been following the spoiler friendly format for all pages as you can see (you have been religiously following and correcting them, thanks for that). I'll definitely add the  mark for spoiler friendly pages. Toctheyounger (talk) 19:41, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

LOL - made the change. Don't beat yourself up over it - I have made the mistake of quoting wrong chapter more than once myself (wrong book even), usually when I have been copying and pasting between several pages. That's why it's good to check over each others edits. The more eyes the better :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:41, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Ambush! Edit

Hope my edits didn't clash with yours... but I could swear that notice was not there when I started!

Thanks for saying hi to our new editor and the constructive comments - I am totally snowed under with work at the moment and trying to find a few spare minutes on the Wiki is proving difficult.

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 09:39, November 20, 2015 (UTC)

No clashes, and no problems. I introduced that template just to check stuff out. I get the feeling you and Aimzzz are really busy (as evidenced by...well, your lack presence). I thought it would make the new contributor feel more welcome if I just passed on a message. Hope stuff is allright on your end, I'm usually the one buried under loads of work, but I decided to take some time off on the weekend. Anyhow, do spare a few minutes for the wiki, we're lost without a few minutes of yours. What's with the 'Ambush!', by the way? Toctheyounger (talk) 10:23, November 20, 2015 (UTC)

Ambush because I could have sworn that the 'editing in progress' warning wasn't there when I looked at the article, then when I posted my edit there is was. Thought you had 'ambushed' me with it :)
Yeah, this is extreme busy time of year for me and alas, there are times when real life simply has to take precedence over Wiki editing. Just as well I have total confidence in you and the rest of the team to keep things ticking over nicely!!! :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:52, November 20, 2015 (UTC)

Blood and Bone Edit


>I am Toc (just an alias)

I'd never have guessed ;)

>I was about to start work on Blood and Bone, however seeing as you probably have it covered, I am going to leave this one to you.

Yes, I've already composed it, now I'm pasting it in and doing the linking.

I'm glad to hear that you're going to do the other two books :)

DavidGH (talk) 14:41, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the hint about categories; I'll do that.

Since you were going to do B&B yourself, do you have the book available? I see the main page Plot Summary has sections (Gatherings, Journeys...) which aren't in my UK MMPB edition.

If they're in your version please let me know which chapters belong where. Otherwise I'll guess.

DavidGH (talk) 15:04, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

>Well, they aren't in my edition either

Thanks for looking. They're not in Egwene's either and I've removed them as she suggested.

>Quick question, will you also be adding info to the character pages which don't exist?

I won't, I'm afraid. I've already spent more time than I'd hoped on this. But hey, it's only polite to leave a few things for others to do ;)

DavidGH (talk) 23:47, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

Yo, maybe check edit histories to find out who put that weird stuff there and then ask them if you really want to know. It was just another one of my ideas that I barely start and then forget about for months and never explain to anyone else. I'll make a new forum topic explaining my reasons, probably next week when I return to my desktop PC. Unless I forget again... --Jade Raven (talk to me) 00:46, December 31, 2015 (UTC)

Rhenet HelelEdit

Hey, Toc.
Is the governor of Hurly's name spelled Rhenet Helel or Henel? I don't have a copy of OST to check.--ArchieVist (talk) 03:43, December 23, 2015 (UTC)

Hello, ArchieVist

It is Rhenet Henel, and I screwed up. If you don't have a copy, then you definitely must have one hell of a memory to remember that one. It's Henel, and I believe as an admin, you can change the name. Or you can create a new page in the OST EDP and delete the old one, and transfer its contents to the new page.

I don't know how you did it but, nice catch :)  Toctheyounger (talk) 14:17, December 23, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Toc. Ha, I wish my memory was that good. I just noticed it was spelled two different ways on the site. A Google search seemed to indicate Henel was the correct spelling, but I couldn't be sure without the book in front of me.--ArchieVist (talk) 16:32, December 23, 2015 (UTC)
Oh, forgot to mention the article and relevant links have been fixed. Keep filling in those OST blanks!--ArchieVist (talk) 16:34, December 23, 2015 (UTC)
Nice. Thanks a lot for doing it. Oh,and also, I believe I am done with the EDP for OST, unless I have missed someone (which, being the absent minded person I am, is quite likely, if not for certain). Yours, Toctheyounger (talk) 17:55, December 23, 2015 (UTC)

Nothing to see here. I just had to remove the old Helel link in the beginning of this thread to remove it from the dead link list.--ArchieVist (talk) 16:36, December 24, 2015 (UTC)

Osserc and Temper Edit

Lol... well spotted. As AV worked out - I got the book titles mixed up (had them both on the table at the time) and the scene is indeed from Blood and Bone. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 09:26, December 24, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been meaning to get you back for...whatever last mistake I made that you caught me. I can't wait to re-read that part. As I remember, it was a very nice 'conversation' between Gothos and Osserc, though I can't remember the Temper and Osserc part. Toctheyounger (talk) 09:51, December 24, 2015 (UTC)

I don't see it as 'getting back'. The way I see it is that we all look out for each other :) The Osserc/Temper bit happened right at the end of that scene. I thought the D'rek connection was very interesting. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 11:47, December 24, 2015 (UTC)
I was just kidding, you know. Implied was the part where I felt that that was exactly what we're doing, just looking out for each other and making sure the info is all correct. I like Temper a lot, even if I think his character is a bit dour. Must be all that he has seen. Toctheyounger (talk) 12:32, December 24, 2015 (UTC)

Adding new names to the EDPEdit

Hey, Toc. The nickname's fine. Or you can call me AV if you want to go even shorter.
I'm not certain what the issue is. I've never used the Visual Editor, and I'm not sure how to even go about doing so. I do all my editing right in the code with the classic editor.

Somehow your entry looked like this in the code: [[Kenussen D'Avore|''Kenussen D'Avore'']]''

When it should have looked like this: "[[Kenussen D'Avore]]''

Maybe Egwene knows?
By the way, the disambiguation errors occur if you use a link that points to a disambiguation page instead of an article -- like if you use Coral (disambiguation), instead of Coral (city).
--ArchieVist (talk) 19:23, December 24, 2015 (UTC)

Kenussen D'Avore Edit

Hi Toc,

I have redirected Kenussen to K'azz and incorporated the info there. Given the timeline I think it is extremely likely that the two are identical. K'azz is quite conceivable a shortened version of the name Kenussen.

Check out how I have phrased it. I did want to allow for the possibility that he might not be whilst at the same time stressing the point that the timeline suggests a high probability of the two being the same.

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 21:40, December 25, 2015 (UTC)

I would frankly disagree with that assessment. There is no documented confrontation between K'azz and the Kingdom of Unta at any other point or that he had been a Duke serving Unta (Hopefully the early empire coverage by ICE can clear one or two things up). In fact, I cannot find Kenussen's name anywhere else and I believe that speaks for his individuality. However, since you have cleverly phrased the addition to K'azz's page to cover both cases, and since there is no way to either corroborate your version or mine, I digress...Toctheyounger (talk) 20:14, December 26, 2015 (UTC)

Tavore is about nine when she reenacts the battle which means it is around 1153 BS. The Crimson Guard was formed in 1066 BS. The battle Tavore was looking into was described as being about a century old. Thus around 1053. About a dozen years between those two events make it very likely that Kenussen is an abbreviation for K'azz. If not, then he must have been his immediate predecessor which would likely have been his father. There would not have been two Duke's of the House D'Avore ruling concurrently. The description of Kenussen as a tactical genius is another point in favour. As you said, there is no absolute proof but it seems to me that everything points towards the two being the same. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 21:00, December 26, 2015 (UTC)

My money is on either Father, ot atleast one of his predecessors. Being bloody and ruthless, the Untan royalty (whoever they were) would have tried to make sure that Kenussen (Let's assume he was a different person) died. If Kenussen managed to escape, he would have held a grudge against the Untan royal family, whom the Malazans decimated (I believe Topper was responsible for assassinating the entire family). It makes no sense that he would commit to something as serious as eternal opposition to the Malazans when he suffered a defeat at Untan hands. Keep in mind, the entire army was decimated, so that means he is left with nothing. If anthing, having a grudge against the Untans, he would have helped the Malazans.

Even so, K'azz did swear enmity against the Malazans for losing the D'Avore lands, which means he had them in the first place, so that would mean either the family of D'Avore was forgiven by the Untans (highly unlikely, given all the families that were destroyed due to their rebelliousness, historically speaking), or they somehow managed to succeed in their rebellion even after that crushing defeat, which would lend credence to your version.

As for his description as a tactical genius, although it is a similiar trait, that hardly says anything about them being the same person. A victory or two is good enough for people to start describing generals as 'tactical genius'. 

Anhow, it's all conjecture at this point, so let's leave the article as it is. Toctheyounger (talk) 04:26, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

Please CheckEdit

Toc, how do you access the Visual Editor? I've only ever seen it when looking at the site on an iPad where I find the touch controls impossible to use. If I look at the site on my pc I can't find it. Even if I set my editing preference to it.--ArchieVist (talk) 01:22, December 29, 2015 (UTC)

That's weird. I always use the Visual Editor by clicking on the red 'Edit' button on the top left corner. Perhaps you use the Monobook version. I always use the Wikia Layout rather than the Monobook one (I feel way more comfortable with it). Maybe that's what is giving you problems. Other than that I can't think of anything. Yours, Toctheyounger (talk) 17:28, December 29, 2015 (UTC)

OST Ext DPEdit

While cleaning up some references on the Exclamations page I found a minor character attributed to OST who isn't on the Orb Sceptre Throne/Extended Dramatis Personae list. It's a fisherman named Ephren who the reference says appears in Chapter 5. Can you confirm and add an entry if necessary?

Also, should the Legate of Darujhistan get his own entry? He's more than just a generic tyrant because he had his own plotline in the book.--ArchieVist (talk) 01:22, December 29, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I remeber old Ephren, he was a good man. However, the tides of time have buried his name and he exists no more...just kidding, I'll add his name. Somehow I remember reading about him and then clean forgot to add his name.

I'm not sure about the Legate. He has already been mentioned in the tyrant list and his activities have been chronicled on Jeshin's page, but you make a good point when you say the Legate has his own storyline. I'll fix something up for him. I resisted linking 'Legate' himself in the articles, but since Egwene has been doing that already (apparently she thinks the same way you do, damn admins!) I'll make a new page for him, though I'm not sure if I should add him in the EDP seeing as he just took over Jeshin's body and this is mentioned on Jeshin's page. Toctheyounger (talk) 17:22, December 29, 2015 (UTC)

Agree with you, Toc, about not needing another page for Jeshin or the Tyrant. We need the Legate page for the title itself so the page should be a general one about the history, function, privileges and known incumbents of the role etc. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 11:08, December 30, 2015 (UTC)

First Throne page Edit

Hi Toc,

AV has obviously fixed the issue... I have no idea what happened. Hopefully it was just a short-lived glitch caused by Wikia Central making changes to something - odd things happen every now and then when they do that. Glad you spotted it :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:59, December 30, 2015 (UTC)

House of Chains, Chap 2 Edit

Yes, I adjusted the formatting to put the line breaks as per book as per other chapter pages. I couldn't make sense of the rest of your comment, Toc, until I had the brainwave to look in default skin. I had not realized that when viewed in Wikia skin the lay-out doesn't quite work out that way. If you view the page in MonoBook it looks just as it does in the book. Hmmmm... will have a think about it. For now though, if you could use the same format as is used for the rest of the Wiki, that would be great :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 00:02, December 31, 2015 (UTC)

The format used for the other chapters is: if its a paragraph, you use the <p> tags, and line breaks to go to the next line, right? And if it's a paragraph, I have always let itself adjust the lines rather than try to control where the line finishes and goes to the next line. Would you like me to follow the latter format? Toctheyounger (talk) 02:55, December 31, 2015 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Toc :)
Use the Epigraph template and add
at the end of each line so that the layout of the epigraph on the Wiki is the same as it is in the book. See the Template:Epigraph page for details. Jade Raven has also added info about adding the indent template to create an indent. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 15:09, January 1, 2016 (UTC)
Amendment: I only just noticed that Jade Raven changed not only indent but the rest of the format for HoC/2. I'll find out what's happening and get back to you. Currently the majority of epigraphs on the Wiki follow book-layout. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 15:18, January 1, 2016 (UTC)

Disambig Edit

created for Tillin - was looking at orphan, didn't realize you were doing CG further up. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:20, January 26, 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I had just created a disambig page, and when I clicked create page, a message said page already exists. I saw that you had created a page like 15 seconds before :) Toctheyounger (talk) 17:22, January 26, 2016 (UTC)

Moranth pageEdit

I see you made a change to this page after your message to me. Can I assume you no longer want it rolled back?--ArchieVist (talk) 13:43, January 30, 2016 (UTC)

Uh, yeah. Sorry, I thought for some reason I had already written a message clarifying I had done it. Too many things going on for me, but yeah, I don't want it rolled back. For some reason, I think I'm the only user who gets this problem.Thanks, Toctheyounger (talk) 13:49, January 30, 2016 (UTC)

3500 Edit

Hi Toc, AV has posted the 3500th content page to the Wiki - thank you for all the pages you contributed, helping us achieve this so soon after celebrating our 3000th :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:38, January 31, 2016 (UTC)

Epigraphs Edit

Are you editing from e-book for epigraphs, Toc? The hard copy for chapter 18 is showing indents at the beginning of the different sections. I have only just realized that e-copies don't seem to reflect hard-copy lay-out for epigraphs on several counts, including text formatting in some cases (italics etc...) If you add e-copy to edit summary, then I'll know to check for those bits.

Ps: ref edit on Marines - wasn't grammar edit - just didn't flow as I was reading it, so I changed it. But if you feel strongly about it... sure, we can leave the 'in fact' bit in. By the way - great job on that kind of stuff - I am much better with details than overviews - glad you seem to enjoy doing them! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:55, February 5, 2016 (UTC)

Matt Smith Edit

Hi Toc,

You seem to know Matt Smith the creator of the current homepage image - could you ask him if he wants his work linked back somewhere? Thanks. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 09:22, February 9, 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 11:33, February 9, 2016 (UTC)

Alias pagesEdit

Hey, Toc. Thanks for creating Alias pages. I never noticed until now that since the Alias page is so short, the system throws in the entire page's text as the default edit summary. So looking at Recent Changes is one huge spoiler.
If there's more pages to add, can you try throwing in some innocuous comment into the summary field? I think I may stay away from the change log for a while. Thanks.--ArchieVist (talk) 19:35, March 3, 2016 (UTC)

Dancer's Lament template Edit

Nary a space out of place; it looks great Toc. I tried to make everything logical and as easy as possible to follow and understand and it looks like it has paid off. Great job! --Jade Raven (talk to me) 00:54, March 4, 2016 (UTC)

Congrats, Toc!!! And well done JR for creating the successful, easy to follow template :) Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:50, March 4, 2016 (UTC)
A space is automatically replaced by an underscore in the URL, none of the other templates have the underscore by default. The migrate option is for converting to "portable infoboxes" which is not desirable for this unusual design. It's more for the book and character infobox types, which have already been converted. --Jade Raven (talk to me) 10:04, March 5, 2016 (UTC)

DL Edit

I have :) Maybe send me a PM on Empire Forum if it involves spoilers. Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 11:04, March 4, 2016 (UTC)

ref images on Trull page Edit

Hi Toc,

No worries - great to get more info for Trull :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:19, June 13, 2016 (UTC)


Hey, Toc. Can you please take a look at your last change on the Hissar page? The system is reporting an issue with the Dryjhna (disambiguation) link inside it because the link is pointing to a disambiguation page. Thanks.--ArchieVist (talk) 01:29, June 14, 2016 (UTC)

The link should take you to whatever article defines the term being linked (rather than a disambiguation page which gives you a number of options). If that's the Whirlwind page in this case it should be changed. Thanks!--ArchieVist (talk) 13:48, June 14, 2016 (UTC)

Welcome backEdit

Good to see you again, Toc!--ArchieVist (talk) 21:18, September 16, 2016 (UTC)

Welcome back Toc =) Coltaine93 (talk) 21:36, September 16, 2016 (UTC)

Hey guys, really missed this place. Been working on my authorial skills for a seperate story of mine, but not to worry, I'm back. Great to hear from you guys again. Toctheyounger (talk) 21:42, September 16, 2016 (UTC)


Hey, Toc.
Check out your Bloor entry. Looks like the editor garbled your update.--ArchieVist (talk) 20:40, September 28, 2016 (UTC)

re: BH Ext DP Edit

Hi, just a note to thank you for the recent revisions you made to the BH Ext DP that I'm currently working on. I'm new at this and I appreciate knowing that there are experts looking over my work and correcting my mistakes. Feel free to make obvious corrections and/or ask me what I think I'm doing if you spot me doing something strange.

I also want to take this opportunity to tell you how much I enjoy your artwork. You're one of my favorite artists on Malaz.wikia--which is saying something since I find the overall quality and imagination of all of the artists impressive.

Thanks again, Pcwrcw (talk) 20:28, September 29, 2016 (UTC)

Reply from Pcwrcw (talk) 21:07, September 30, 2016 (UTC) Edit

Thanks a lot for the feedback on the BH Ext DP. I really appreciate your taking the time to point out the things that I was doing 'oddly', and then to explain what was odd and how to fix them. I'll go over the BH Ext DP with what you said in mind, and try to clean up the entries that need it (oh goody, more editing for everyone to live with).

I will probably still keep most of the Ardata entry, especially the stuff about the Dolmens of Tien, etc., because it's a very early mention/description of them, long before ICE's BB came out. Otherwise, I will try my best to take what you've said to heart.

Actually, I sort of fell into doing the BH Ext DP. I was starting to re-read BH (which I first read when it was published in the US) when I came across malazan.wikia, linked from a general Wikipedia article. I kept finding names in BH that I didn't recognize and weren't in the BH's DP. So, of course, I checked out what was on the Internet...and discovered the existence of Ext DP's. However, the one for BH hadn't been done. So, after browsing malazan.wikia for a time, I rashly started putting 'new' BH names that I had come across into the BH Ext DP. The whole thing rather snow-balled from there. ArchieVist stepped in early to help me along, but I really didn't (still don't) have the grasp of the conventions and fine points that I should have had before I even started. Thus, I'm learning as I go along, hoping that I'm not irritating the 'regulars' too much.

I apologize for confusing you with the artist, Slaine69--don't ask me why I did. Perhaps one of his pieces with the character 'Toc the Younger' in it got stuck in my mind. Oh well, sorry about that.

Thanks again for all your help and for your generous offer to help me more if I need it. Pcwrcw (talk) 21:07, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

BH character, Filiad or Filliad ?? Edit

I noticed that Toctheyounger created (and you edited) an article for Filliad (which is great). However, the name was consistently spelled 'Filiad' in the text of tBH that I used (the US Tor Hardcover). For example, it's spelled that way in the Prologue, fourth "sub-section", and in Chapter Fourteen, fifth "sub-section". Therefore, it's spelled that way in my BH Ext DP.

Was this name spelled with two l's in British/Canadian editions, or what?

Puzzled, Pcwrcw (talk) 19:18, October 7, 2016 (UTC)

Toc, can you please check on Pcwrcw's comment above? Is it a typo? Thanks.--ArchieVist (talk) 19:28, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
Yep, it's a typo, guys. Nice catch Pcwrcw. AV, can you fix the name of the page with your admin rights? And I think we'll have to change the name in all the pages it's referenced as well. Toctheyounger (talk) 19:41, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
Never mind, done and dusted with that one. Toctheyounger (talk) 19:49, October 7, 2016 (UTC)

Kudos on new BH articles/article sections Edit

Just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed reading the new tBH-related articles and tBH sections (added to existing articles) that you've recently completed. I'm impressed at how you've produced concise entries that use the various nuggets of information found in the book, while also writing them in an interesting and comprehensive fashion.

Which not to say that the articles in malazan.wikia aren't as a rule well-written. This, however, is the first time I've had a chance to see the end-result of someone converting material in one of the books into article form, while coincidentally myself being very familiar with that same material (via my BH Ext DP). It was very satisfying seeing red EDP entries turn into blue links. It never occurred to me, for example, that any of those "villagers" could become the source for several useful articles. I was also pleased to see Trynigarr have an article to himself, because he is one of my favorite 'unsung' heroes in tBH.

Looking forward to seeing more of your work, Pcwrcw (talk) 18:46, October 9, 2016 (UTC)

Hanu Edit

Thanks for making that page, it has been at the top of the automatically generated pages wanted list for literally years. --Jade Raventalk 00:06, November 15, 2016 (UTC)

Hanu Edit

That's definitely a big one off the list of red links!!!

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:04, November 15, 2016 (UTC)

PS: lol - I posted the above before realising that Jade Raven had made a similar comment - you'll probably get AV coming in with the same before long as well. That one really was crying out to be tackled! Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 10:06, November 15, 2016 (UTC)

I have come to loathe Hanu, but not for anything he did in the books. Thanks for getting rid of him.--ArchieVist (talk) 14:07, November 15, 2016 (UTC)

Image of the week Edit

Could you add a nomination? Looks like Andorion was stuck last week for new ones. I have already added one and if you and Marl each add one as well then with the remaining old ones it would bring it up to six for the next poll. Thanks.

Inspired by your effort, I have taken the next one of the most wanted list. Only two more pages needed before the big one :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:38, November 20, 2016 (UTC)

Indifferent God... Edit

Great minds... I actually started that page and saved how far I got to have dinner... only to come back and see you have beaten me to it, lol.

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 20:19, November 20, 2016 (UTC)

Dancer Edit

Hi Toc, hope the new years has started well for you :)

We might be better off having a separate page for Dorin Rav and add a Alias template to it at an appropriate part as DL is quite likely to become the entry point into the Malazan world for some new readers. What do you think?

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 17:42, January 5, 2017 (UTC)

In addition to that - how about adding a alias template pointing to Dorin Rav to the history section on the Cotillion page?
Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 18:10, January 5, 2017 (UTC)

Kindly under construction Edit

Hi Toc,

can we add CN's image of Kindly to his page?

Coltaine 14:50, January 11, 2017 (UTC)

Dorin RavEdit

Toc, sorry if one of my changes wiped out your work. After Wikia erased a few large articles of mine while saving, I started keeping a text file open on the side while working. Anytime I write more than a paragraph and am not ready to save on the Wiki, I copy and paste it to the text file as backup. This has saved me a few times.

Another trick that works sometimes is to hit the back arrow on your browser after the save fails. Once in a while the original edit screen comes up with all your changes and you can copy and paste them back in.--ArchieVist (talk) 14:56, January 20, 2017 (UTC)

WIP Edit

Ah, I removed it because you hadn't edited the page for nearly a week. The notice can prevent other people from editing the page so as I thought you might have forgotten to remove it I checked the edit history and then did so. --Jade Raventalk 21:44, January 20, 2017 (UTC)

New Anomander Picture Edit

Hi Toc,

did you ask the artist of the image for permission? I would guess yes, as you added her full name in the link, but just to be sure. Coltaine (talk) 18:25, February 15, 2017 (UTC)

Hey Coltaine,

Sure I did. She's on the FB Malazan group. She posted it there, and I asked her if we could use it, and she permitted it. 

Toctheyounger (talk) 19:07, February 15, 2017 (UTC)

Good job, Thanks :)

Coltaine (talk) 20:03, February 15, 2017 (UTC)

Blood Follows "Chapters"Edit

Hey, Toc. Since the B&KB novellas don't have typical chapter breakdowns, I've broken them into sections. See the below pagination, where each new section is identified by the first few words in the first paragraph of the section.

So the reference would look something like: Blood Follows, Section 3
--ArchieVist (talk) 21:19, May 24, 2017 (UTC)

Image of the Week Edit

Welcome back Toc :)

Thanks for your nomination. We are currently doing some polls with a theme, the current one is Bonehunters, but we will add the image to the first one after we have finished the themes.


Coltaine (talk) 17:02, September 24, 2017 (UTC)

re: "K'rul" entry weirdness ?? Edit

Toc: Unless it's some problem with my computer, your editing of the K'rul page has ended up with some sort of weirdness going on. Better have a look to check if it's just me, or if something strange happened between your editing and what has, in fact, appeared in the article. Pcwrcw (talk) 20:51, October 11, 2017 (UTC)

Hi Toc - the following is a copy/paste of what the K'rul's "Speculation" section (the subheading ==Speculation== displays correctly) currently looks like on my computer screen (in Monobook):

His/her gender has been a subject of speculation, since he was a male in n a subject of spec, and a female in was a male in Memori. However, in response to a question, author rone. However, in said that being an Azathanai, he/she/it could shift its own gender. Please refer to she/it could shift its own gender. Please refer to [ for a detailed answer. This assertion is further expanded upon in answer. This assertio; with multiple mentions of K'rul's propensity to change his/her gender. At one point, Skillen Droe comments to K'rul that he prefers him as a woman. This prompts K'rul to say he won't be giving birth for a while, insinuating he uses his female form to procreate in some manner yet unknown. As seen throughout the canon, all Azathanai(most being Elder Gods) are able to change their appearance at will, and manipulate their surroundings. Even the Azathanai know not from whence their abilities came, as they preceded their perceived Godhood.

If you see a similarly garbled version of the main body of the "Speculation" section of K'rul, then that is what I see - if the copy above appears garbled, but doesn't match what you see on your computer screen, then the problem lies elsewhere. Do you work in Oasis? Are you still using Internet Explorer (which the Wiki no longer supports)? If your screen shows a version which is not garbled, I wonder if we could ask someone else to give the section a look so that, at least, we would know whether the problem lies with my computer, or what.
Pcwrcw (talk) 19:43, October 13, 2017 (UTC)

Toc, the "Speculation" section of K'rul is OK now. I took your suggestion and did a 'rollback' and then did an edit (changing to ==Speculation== from whatever the anonymous user's weird formatting was). As it happens I'm not 'admin' but a 'patroller' like you are. However, I can see why you preferred to have someone else try to fix whatever the problem was, since the reason for the glitch was unknown (still is, for that matter). The only reason I even noticed the problem to begin with was because I had accessed the "Speculation" section of K'rul because I was going to make some changes/additions of my own. However, I think I'll just leave things as they are for now and just tiptoe quietly away. Cheers, Pcwrcw (talk) 01:29, October 14, 2017 (UTC)


Good to see you in action again, Toc :)

Egwene of the Malazan Empire (talk) 22:17, January 4, 2018 (UTC)

Re: Malazan Wiki:5000 Edit

Hi Toc: many thanks for the kind words! There has been a lot of activity by a lot of people to get the count up to 5000 in such a relatively short period of time. I was still wet behind the ears (I'm still a bit damp there even now) when the Wiki hit 4000, so it can't have been much longer than a year ago. How time flies! Cheers, Pcwrcw (talk) 00:39, March 25, 2018 (UTC)

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